Why do Republicans have to be secretly in the thrall of the Russians to be evil? Can’t the Republicans just be scum based on their own will?
Statesians blaming foreigners for the most Statesian things, a tale as old as the US Empire.
This is dumb as shit, completely pointless.
I think this kind of mentality partially absolves the US of its own homegrown horrors and ignores the imperialist and fascist parts of our own society that have existed here since it’s creation.
Precisely. The US is suffering what they have inflicted on other countries for decades. It’s hard to have any empathy for them now when they are still doing it (e.g. Trump supporting Milei in Argentina).
Right. Like, yeah, they might be Russian agents but they’re WILLING agents. If Russia is asking them to do things, they’re things these traitors already wanted to do.
Whether they’re Russian agents isn’t exactly irrelevant, but it also doesn’t really change anything. Russia night have sped up the process, but we’ve been on this road literally since the inception of our country.
It’s wild to me how much of a boogeyman Russia has been made into in lib circles.
There are probably a dozen or so countries who actively root for and foment political discontent in the US, but for some reason any American that falls into alignment with some loose formation of anti-democraric positions qualifies specifically as a Russian agent
Libs do not realize just how xenophobic their own politics have become. Just because you think your fears are justified doesn’t mean they arent irrational
Few countries had figures like Putin who played a long-game over decades to destabilize the US. The ones that do, we’re so into with oil deals, we don’t care if they did 9/11. I guess… now that I think about it, it is kind of weird.
They willingly cooperate with russia because russia helps them to take power via online botnets. Yeah, they are absolute scum, but you can find those in any society. The problem is foreign interference that gives them voice. Like the one USA now tries to apply to EU countries, boosting the far righters via social media algorithms.
One could just as easily say that a meme about US homegrown horrors ignores the effect foreign propaganda efforts are having and absolves the countries hostile to America of blame.
You could, but it would be stupid
The fuck, Russian doesn’t control shit, they can’t even control their own troops half the time.
Trump’s just a shithead who will do almost anything when praised by powerful people, especially if given a shiny object.
Might help if centrists could stop calling people to their left fascists and russians for disliking genocide.
The world does not revolve around genocide, good god, can we see the world at large beyond a single topic? I’m not even a centrist, and I know that’s not the reason for the name-calling.
The world does not revolve around genocide,
The democratic party does.
I’m not even a centrist, and I know that’s not the reason for the name-calling.
You’ve never called genocide wrong, so centrists don’t call you a russian.
The world does not revolve around genocide, good god, can we see the world at large beyond a single topic?
Sure, the Nazis did the Holocaust, so that’s one point against, but their uniforms looked pretty sharp, so that’s one point in favor. All in all, pretty much neutral. I don’t see why people get so hung up on one single topic.
That doesn’t quite fit what I’m saying, but I’m glad you found the opportunity to regurgitate one of your comments I’ve read a while ago.
I frequently call out bullshit attempts to minimize literal genocide as being “just a single issue,” so I’m not surprised it sounds similar to something I’ve said before.
It does, however, fit exactly with what you said.
Nobody’s minimizing anything. I’m saying you and Ensign_Crab are overstating the role that genocide plays in this one topic.
So how does your comment fit that? It’s a thought-terminating saying that you like to repeat as if it proves a point. That’s it. Don’t come at me with your bullshit, either.
I genuinely don’t see how it’s possible to reason with this bullshit.
“Not minimizing, just saying that you’re overstating,” what? Do you not recognize the obvious contradiction in that?
So how does your comment fit that?
I don’t see how you’re struggling to make the connection, it’s literally just swapping out one genocide and one perpetuator of genocide for another, keeping the words and logic exactly the same. I’m not (sarcastically) “minimizing” the Holocaust, I’m just “saying that you’re overstating” the Holocaust in (presumably) concluding from it that Nazis are bad, without considering other factors, such as how they dress.
Brother, you realize that the original statement by Ensign_Crab makes no sense, right? They’re using genocide to grind their axe and have admitted as much. You two are using a hot topic like genocide as an excuse to rail against people and pick a fight. My criticism is a meta comment about that.
What doesn’t make sense is what you’re accusing me of when you haven’t realized why I’m saying it.
You cant just blame “those pesky, conniving foreigners” when your country descends into fascism after 2 centuries of racism, genocide, and withering away of social safety nets.
You cant just blame “those pesky, conniving foreigners”
Nice, trying to dismiss the very real threat Russia poses as racism. Sounds like something a Russian would do.
Agreed. Those damn Russians forced us to genocide the natives and do slavery too, and anyone who tries to deflect blame off of Russia and onto Americans is clearly trying to serve Russian interests, so their perspective can be dismissed without consideration.
Those fucking Russians crapped my pants, too.
Red Scare 22.0
you mean like how NSPM-7 does it to suit the needs of the Russian christofascists or like how your persecution fetish makes your pp hard when you feel personally attacked?
Hmm, I wonder where russian oligarchs imported christofascism from back in the 90s. Could it be the same country that nazis used as inspiration back in the late 30s?
Face it, you have plenty of billionaires spouting propaganda and buying elections at home, no need for any foreign influence.
it’s always a tankie making excuses.
Delusional
Stop trying to blame Russia, blame capitalism. I hate putin as much as you (probably more because I can’t live in my own house, or visit my parents, all because of him), but it is your ruling class at fault and not some russian influence. Whatever putin could do is inconsequential compared to the wealth and influence the 20 richest people of your empire.
Your billionaires have decided that trump and fascism is the most beneficial choice for them at present, it is truly that simple. What you are witnessing right now is a natural outcome of a capitalist system, as intended by your racist proto-nazi founding fathers.
I was with you until last half of the last sentence.
Racist, sure. “proto-nazi”? Who and why? One example would be great, I don’t understand the connection.
Without having to click links it’s basically this; Hitler had a Hardon for American Exceptionalism and shit, Nazis are based on American ideas just taken to the extreme.
So hence proto as in precursor to the Nazis.
Thanks for the description! When I think ‘founding fathers’ I’m thinking of the literal dudes who wrote and signed the US constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I didn’t see any connections for the term to that time period in American history.
You mean the guys that literally genocided native peoples? That wrote into the constitution that black people were worth less? That only rich land-owning people should be allowed representation?..
Whatever putin could do is inconsequential compared to the wealth and influence the 20 richest people of your empire.
Are you suggesting that $20k in Facebook ads didn’t decide the result of a $4B election season?
Sounds like Russian propaganda to me
It can be two things. Read this or anything else about Cambridge Analytica to get a sense of the difference between what they were doing and the same hack political radio ad hour after hour.
Trump’s ties to russia are many and varied, going back forty-plus years. It’s all been documented in Proof of Conspiracy, Mueller found collusion; these are not hypotheticals. It’s a known part of the current befuckdedness.
Is it the ONLY part? No. But it starts there and it stays there.
Cambridge Analytica is a good place to start. Previously:
- IT Pro: Cambridge Analytica models were exaggerated and ineffective, [UK Information Commissioner’s Office] claims
- Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesn’t Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
- Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
- Washington Post: FEC fines DNC, Clinton for violating rules in funding Steele dossier
- Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
- Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
- Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
- Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, there’s been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitter’s internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
- MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
- Matt Taibbi: CIA “Cooked The Intelligence” To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
- Aaron Maté: Under Trump, the CIA is still covering up its Russiagate fraud
- Matt Taibbi: Note on New Trump-Russia Disclosures Thanks to explosive new document releases, the Russiagate hoax is now exposed, commencing a new era that will be about accountability for the guilty
- Matt Taibbi: No Doubt Left: Russiagate Was a Cover-Up
- Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Won’t Go Away The cynical con the Democratic Party and the F.B.I. carried out to falsely portray Donald Trump as a puppet of the Kremlin worked, and continues to work, because it is what those who detest Trump want to believe.
Those archive.today links didn’t work for me, but that could just be me. The “studies” are opinions otherwise and if you want to pick one, I’ll kick it apart but I’m not going to go through all of them.
Trump’s ties to russia are many and varied
Trump’s ties to the Italian Mafia are stronger. He’s a second generation fence and money launderer who made a fortune helping to move money out of Eastern Europe back in the 90s.
But he’s an American creation who worked on behalf of American institutions. That’s why he’s tied up with Guliani, Bloomberg, Clinton, and Epstein.
The tunnel vision liberals have with Russia ignores a rich vein of corruption for one of its more salacious and partisan tributaries.
Trump’s ties to the Italian Mafia are stronger.
We’re probably splitting hairs, but - what? I haven’t heard that before but I’ve heard a LOT about the russian angle. (we seem to converge on Eastern Europe though)
what? I haven’t heard that before
It was bigger news back in 2016
The picture shows that Trump’s career has benefited from a decades-long and largely successful effort to limit and deflect law enforcement investigations into his dealings with top mobsters, organized crime associates, labor fixers, corrupt union leaders, con artists and even a one-time drug trafficker whom Trump retained as the head of his personal helicopter service.
The Russia connection was minor by comparison, and largely a result of Trump’s status as a lynchpin in NY crime.
I think that DCJ piece is good, and clearly ‘mob’ connections are rife, but outside of that early-80’s wash of Roy Cohn and the ready-mix concrete guys, there’s not a lot more specific to Italian mafia.
I read that Giuliani’s ‘cleanup’ of Italian mobsters allowed in the russians which was duly appreciated. Early 80s is the same time the Kremlin started to keep tabs on Trump, giving him a tour and business opportunities then.
Felix Sater, Michael Cohen, Rybolovlev and others who consistently and repeatedly appear in any honest accounting of his blatantly illegal dealings.
Unger’s account of infiltration also exposes how Trump’s financial entanglements laid the groundwork for this betrayal. In the 1980s, as Trump struggled with debt from failing casinos and overextended real estate ventures, Soviet-linked financiers appeared, flush with cash.
Deals involving Trump Tower properties drew in shadowy buyers connected to Russian organized crime and intelligence fronts. Even when Western banks deemed him too risky, new Russian-linked money never seemed to dry up. Each transaction pulled him closer into Moscow’s orbit.
By the time the Soviet Union collapsed, Russian oligarchs kept the pipeline open, ensuring that Trump’s business empire would survive—and remain beholden to foreign backers whose first loyalty was to the Kremlin. (via)
So while there certainly were ties to Italian mafia, his later business and almost all of his political life is awash in russian mob ties. Given that russia is run by mafias-within-mafias that’s not so surprising, is it.
outside of that early-80’s wash of Roy Cohn and the ready-mix concrete guys
The article goes significantly farther than ready-mix concrete. Trump was in tight with the Gambino family, among other mob affiliates and organizations.
I read that Giuliani’s ‘cleanup’ of Italian mobsters allowed in the russians which was duly appreciated. Early 80s is the same time the Kremlin started to keep tabs on Trump, giving him a tour and business opportunities then.
It ties out with a shift in policy from Cold Era Italy being a major bridge between NATO agencies in the West and their informants/operators in the East. Post-collapse, Sicily was old news since you could march your goons directly into St. Petersburg and Moscow to commence the looting.
But Trump’s roll as a money launderer and fixer remains consistent during the transition.
So while there certainly were ties to Italian mafia, his later business and almost all of his political life is awash in russian mob ties.
His primary ties were to US and German lenders, with black market business interests using his properties to clean their ill-gotten gains. The flood of money and refugees coming out of Eastern Europe following the post-Soviet crash changed the composition of his criminal clients. His roll in legitimizing the looting through financialization did not.
Stop trying to blame Russia
No.
blame capitalism.
We can do both, but one of them has a more defined paper trail.
We can do both, but one of them has a more defined paper trail.
Capitalism’s trail of blood in your country goes back to its founding. It is incredibly well-defined and has been studied a lot (except they won’t tell you about it in school or many universities).
And if you want a more concrete link between capitalism and trump, look at inauguration footage again, or look at campaign contributions.
Russia’s entire state budget was less than revenue of just Apple in 2024. If your ruling class didn’t want trump, he wouldn’t be a president right now.
Uh yeah, okay
Exhibit A: USian prompted to interrogate their internalized racism
So, y’all just say whatever comes to mind and pretend it’s a real thing, huh? Cool.
It’s because you called out russia. Now the tankies are here to defend them and blame capitalism for everything.
Delusional
At this point, I can’t see any other reason you’d stick to blaming “the russians” for the state of your country. Even if putin has kompromat on trump, putin is not the reason republicans hold all three branches of your government.
Log off and go read a book kiddo
Capitalism is a form of authoritarianism. Its anti free market and anti personal freedoms. It uses power to gain more power and control.
Tankies hit this thread hard, you said something bad about ruzzia. Tankies to the defense!
be fucking serious right now. this is not “saying something bad about russia”, it’s squarely putting all the blame of america being shit on a foreign country.
like no, i think the reason the us is fascist now has more to do with the economic interests of billionaires as well as the racial interests of white colonizers than it has with foreign interference.
stop acting like your country was a perfect haven of progress and was perverted by external forces. the usa has always been awful, it’s just that its ideological rot has just been made more obvious to you now.
The EU which is often shown as the most progressive countries on the planet, has right wing bullshit coming in hard core. You gonna suggest that’s just internal and not foreign actors pushing the division?
Never said the usa was a perfect haven of anything. I’m pointing out that russia has had a big role in creating division in countries for a while now, not just in the USA. Then you have a bunch of tankies coming out with “but usa” deflection.
You gonna suggest that’s just internal and not foreign actors pushing the division?
Yes! Because all of these countries are experiencing similar economic conditions, and ideologies are driven by material conditions!
Lol yea and russia and china are the victims got it. Tankie somewhere else
I’m sorry that reality has a tankie bias.
ROFL
You tankies only exist on the net because anyone who hears the shit that you spew out of your mouths in the real world just take you for insane people.
You’re losing and you know it, online and in real life
The EU which is often shown as the most progressive countries on the planet
Are you fucking kidding me? Have you completely erased the Palestinian genocide from your mind? Europe is ACTIVELY FUNDING A GENOCIDE. What in the fuck are you talking about
That has nothing to do with being progressive or not champ.
SuPpOrTiNg A gEnOcIdE iS so pRoGrEsSiVe
China -uyghurs…tankies - not genocide
Russia - Circassian…tankies -not genocide
I’ll say it again, supporting Israel is shit, but that doesn’t magically make the EU less progressive.
“Europe is very progressive because I’ve made up a genocide in China!”
You’re also sorely mistaken if you think tankies consider Russia progressive.
The EU which is often shown as the most progressive countries on the planet
europe is responsible for perhaps the greatest crime in human history, and still benefitting from it, but, sure. the rise of the far right is because of russia. suuuuuure.
Yea because those people are still alive today still taking over other countries…
Ever heard about what France is doing in Africa right now? Or who bought up most of the corporations and rights to mine precious resources in Ukraine? Or how the entire global order is organised?
Yea cause china and russia aren’t doing shit in Africa. Lol
“Whatabout the thing the other guy might be doing” pathetic
It’s a class stuggle.
It’s that simple.I thought it was a political struggle.
All political struggle is either bourgeois infighting (flip on the telly to see it), or class war (the ruling class doesn’t want you to think about it). The former can be fun to watch at times, the latter is the one which has any chance of improving your material conditions.
The struggle of class against class is a what struggle?
A what struggle?
Not sure what the gotcha is. Class struggle is a subset of political struggle, and it is the subset most relevant to you the worker, as outlined by my comment.
Marx said that every class struggle is a political struggle. This means that, if the proletarians and capitalists are waging an economic struggle against each other today, they will be compelled to wage a political struggle tomorrow and thus protect their respective class interests in a struggle that bears two forms. The capitalists have their particular business interests. And it is to protect these interests that their economic organisations exist. But in addition to their particular business interests, they also have common class interests, namely, to strengthen capitalism. And it is to protect these common interests that they must wage a political struggle and need a political party.
It’s also a bit.
The closest libs come to ever reading theory is asking a chatbot about a Monty Python sketch.
The USA
- Over throws the Russian government
- Throws an election and installs a president
- American oligarchs work with Russian oligarchs and leaders to subject the Russian people shock therapy
- A US ally takes control and US works with him for years
- The US literally takes billions of their dollars and freeze their access to accounts and access to global finance and doesn’t return it or roll it back
- The Russians continually try and reestablish ties to get their cash back and fail
- The Russians are drawn into a war of attrition against the US and have to switch to a war economy just to survive
- Despite somehow controlling the USA, still haven’t gotten access to international capital or their own money
US libs:
OMG THE RUSSIANS TOOK OVER
Americans are so dumb it is unbelievable. You’re fucking them hard right now and you think they took over? You’re just salty your shit ass government is doing to you what you did to my family.
You have picked your lemmy instance perfectly
In the english speaking world, remembering anything that happened more than one year ago makes you crazy.
Some advice for you
- Locate your avatar in the top right of the screen and select “Settings”
- Select “Delete Account”
- Enter your password and select “Delete”
That sounds ilke a good idea.
Before I do that, could you try it out yourself, just to verify that it works?
Much appreciated.
Or alternatively you can just call them reactionaries, as bad as Russia is they’re a drop in the bucket compared to the American capitalist class
Wait are you suggesting that russia isn’t anywhere near as bad as Americans? Cause we’re all part of the capitalist class. Every Western nation is…hell pretty much every economy on the planet is capitalist.
I read in the previous comment “american capitalists”. Which is a step up from elsewhere. But yes, also, Russia isn’t anywhere near as bad as the formerly united states. Not when averaged over the past decades since WW2. However, at this very moment, Russia is worse - because for once, that other shithole regime has no hot war ongoing. Unless you count their assistance towards the genocide and otjer war crimes committed against the palestinian people. At which point it becomes a tie again in terms of evilness :(
The former United States? In the same time line that russia has been around, they’ve done way more than the USA has done. You can’t even begin to compare the two. One literally sided with Nazis and has killed millions via famine. The USA has some atrocious imperialism but we’re not russia level of murdering.
Do you think there’s anything “united” left about that clusterfuck between Canada and Mexico?
Yea, I do. We’re not at a civil war yet and people are waking up to the fascist lies and trying to turn the ship around. Can’t exactly say that for russia, which the majority of support the war in Ukraine still.
Well - from the outside it certainly doesn’t look united anymore. And your comparison does not make sense. Russia neither has a civil war ongoing for now, nor are the average citizens discernibly any less or any more brainwashed than in the divided states.
And from a European perspective, both are threatening our continent & freedoms.
We’re still able to call out our politicians and protest without falling out of a window or being meat fodder for an invasion.
Don’t forget the 16 million ppl dying from USAID being cut
Yes because pulling aid is the same as a forced famine.
“Forced famine” lol
Lol anything’s possible when you make shit up kiddo
Rich coming from someone who’s got the mind of a child to think communism is the best thing ever, and it’ll work this time. Lol
“It’ll work this time” lol if people like you made the decisions we would have given up on inventing planes, you’re a coward and a fool
Oh no, this is what conservatives are.
I don’t see why it can’t be both. If their interests align, they’d sure welcome the collaboration. Like, didn’t Trump openly call for Russia to investigate his political opponents in his “Russia, if you’re listening…” speech? Aren’t the Trumps and other media talking heads being funded by Russian sponsors as well?
You can make the same point about Democrat leadership with their Pied Piper strategy and funding of Trump back before the 2016 elections. But you won’t see “tankies” saying that Trump works for Hillary because that’s a dumb ass ridiculous take. Trump works for the US oligarch class and shares every geopolitical point with Biden, thats why democrats just voted for an additional billion dollars in funding to the US miltary.
But you won’t see “tankies” saying that Trump works for Hillary because that’s a dumb ass ridiculous take
That’s not analogous to what I’m saying. It’s also no the first time I hear someone cite Hillary’s shady campaign strategy as if it’s proportionate to the money laundering and bribing scheme happening in Trump’s golf courses for decades.
It’s well-known that Russia has invested on both conservatives and democrats to promote US infighting and sow discord. My point is that it doesn’t matter who Russia is funding if they’re meeting their goals in the end. The fact of the matter is that there is still meddling going on and there’s proof of this. The only difference is that conservatives seem more openly receptive.
