Up on the dam, almost everything that looks like a problem becomes an advantage.
The plant sits above the fog line, in thin, clear air that lets far more sunlight through.
The higher you go, the stronger and cleaner the sunlight becomes.
Cold actually helps, because solar panels work more efficiently when they are not baking in heat.
And then there is the snow, which acts like a giant mirror, bouncing extra light up onto the panels from below.
Scientists call it the albedo effect, and it can lift a mountain plant’s output well beyond anything possible in the valley.
A test site at a similar height recorded yearly output far above a typical Swiss plant.
I have a very serious issue with this!
What about the profits for coal companies! How are they supposed to make money! What if they go out of business!
WON’T SOMEBODY THINK ABOUT COAL INDUSTRY PROFITS!
They’re going to cool off the sun if they aren’t careful. /s
I seriously used to work with a guy who thought wind turbines might have negative impact on the environment because it was “taking the wind”.
Weeeeeeelllllll
So, like, not completely wrong?
The energy output by a wind turbine has to come from somewhere. It is taking it from the wind.
You’re not wrong, but he thought that was harmful.
If we take too much energy from wind it will probably turn out to have negative consequences.
Just out of curiosity, did you try to explain to him that it’s the wind moving the turbine?
Some of the wind is converted into electricity, so the wind is reduced. Might not be a lot, but it could have some kind of an impact.
As far as I can tell from what I’ve been able to look up, that’s not quite how it works. The wind itself isn’t converted into electricity. The turbine extracts kinetic energy from the moving air and converts a portion of that energy into electrical energy. As a result, the air leaving the turbine is moving more slowly than the air entering it.
That reduction in wind speed is real, but it’s localized. Atmospheric mixing continually replenishes the slower-moving air with faster-moving air from above and the surrounding area, so the effect largely dissipates as you move away from the wind farm. The amount of energy extracted is so small that it doesn’t have any meaningful effect beyond the immediate vicinity of the wind farm.
🤷
I don’t know. It’s alarming how many people don’t even have a rudimentary understanding of basic scientific principles. We were taught the laws of thermodynamics in elementary school here in the states in the early '90s for me.
I don’t know. It’s alarming how many people don’t even have a rudimentary understanding of basic scientific principles. We were taught the laws of thermodynamics in elementary school here in the states in the early '90s for me.
The biggest lesson from thermodynamics is that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. We may only be taking a minuscule fraction of the wind energy, but taken to an extreme there are bound to be some bad effects. In between those extremes, there are likely less predictable effects like disruption to local wind patterns.
I doubt we’re anywhere near that and there’s probably little chance of ever getting close to that without huge jet stream harvesting generators or turbines covering most of the land, but we can’t pretend that the energy is free and completely without side-effects.
The wind itself isn’t converted into electricity. The turbine extracts kinetic energy from the moving air and converts a portion of that energy into electrical energy. As a result, the air leaving the turbine is moving more slowly than the air entering it.
That’s what I said, just without mentioning all the stuff in between - I’m sure that there’s cables and other boring details involved as well ;-)
The actual non-AI article about the dam: https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/energy/generation-and-distribution/solar-power/alpinsolar.html
Here are some images of the dam sourced from Axpo encoded from 117MiB to 626 KiB (720p AVIF)
Images
Why the fuck would everyone say solar doesn’t make sense up where it’s cold and clear where anyone who knows anything about the topic knows that solar is most efficient?
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
- Upton Sinclair
- Michael Scott
Not only that, but it also works brilliantly on farms, giving sheep something to hide under for shade, makes their wool higher quality, and the earth underneath retains more moisture, and well as holding more dew for later in the day.
I’ve thought for YEARS that we should to the same thing with the Hoover Dam. Should also mount wind turbines on the face of it to catch the updrafts out of the canyon. You all acting like green energy has to be mutually exclusive to one another. Wind turbine blades have a lot of surface area that could be covered in solar panels, which solves the issue of solar panels energy output decreasing with heat because then they’d always have built in cooling. No wind? There’s still light and some wattage is better than no wattage. Put the turbine blade head on a giant hinge and they can catch rising air from the grounds’ radiant heat at night. Free energy is everywhere if you just know where to look and how to take advantage of it.
Wind turbine blades have a lot of surface area that could be covered in solar panels, which solves the issue of solar panels energy output decreasing with heat because then they’d always have built in cooling.
That is a stupid idea. Blade weight is one of the biggest engineering issues for wind turbines.
It’s a great idea but impractical with existing tech.
if you can get a solar cell in a 6 oz calculator, I doubt highly that incorporating it into the design of the blade is going to add much more weight than the expanded aluminum and fibreglass that’s already there.
Are you listening to yourself? Because a 4 cm² solar cell fits in a 170 g calculator, that means that 200-300 m² of solar cells will be fine for the 35 ton turbine blades at around π/2/s of angular momentum with the outer radius of 100m? Those concepts are barely related.
You have no idea if the fiber glass blades have the tensile force to spare to deal with 3 tons of extra weight from the panels alone, or what it will do to the bearings in the generator if you load them 10% or 15% more, or how much flat panels will fuck up your blade aerodynamics, or how expensive it will be to get custom curved panels to preserver the aerodynamics.
Just hand waving everything that stands against your idea away as solvable is magical thinking, not visionary brilliance.
Right, and we’ll never walk on the moon, either. Got it.
Any extra weight is too much. Plus a 6 oz calculator doesn’t usually fly at 300km/h in open weather, you will need some strong (heavy) glass or plastic too protect the panels. Much simpler too just put them on the ground next to the wind turbine.
if it’s a structural engineering problem then it’s probably solvable. perhaps they can be added like fins on the blade which would disrupt turbulence, reduce drag and sound, much like how an owl has ragged feathers to allow them to have silent flight.
But why? We’ll make better blades without the extra weight of the solar panels and cheaper panels by just putting them on the ground.
“infrasound” complainers
Always be aware of people who throw that word “stupid” around. They are usually hiding their own deficiencies.
I thought making turbine blades significantly heavier was the stupidest idea in this thread, but you’ve proved me wrong!
I don’t limit my stupidity to just one thread, pal. You need to think bigger.
You all acting like green energy has to be mutually exclusive to one another.
I certainly don’t. But I agree, there’s a lot of ideas that die on the cutting room floor because they don’t pander to a specific lobbying interest.
Maybe it’s no big deal, but I imagine there’s a significant complication of the blades to do that. They’re basically wings, and (again, I’d imagine) are structurally sensitive.
Agree with your general point of mix and match and combine
solar cells are basically a membrane. it’s usually the mounting frame that adds the weight.
Maybe it’s no big deal, but I imagine there’s a significant complication of the blades to do that. They’re basically wings, and (again, I’d imagine) are structurally sensitive.
I think a problem could be that the wind turbines are moving parts, so they somehow vibrate, and that could be a problem for the dam while panel on the other hand are basically a layer of paint.
Putting solar panels in a valley in Switzerland is… a graphic demonstration of tunnel vision.
I imagine they had to do a lot of calculations in order to be sure this installation would not compromise the dam. But if this could be applied in other locations, it could be extremely benificial.
Honestly, I think it wouldn’t be a problem in any dam. I’m sure they made all the required studies but dams are so thick and made to withstand such great forces that a couple of solar panels bolted on would be negligible. I bet 10cm of water rise would be a way bigger load
Especially considering anything
attractedattached to the dam is going to add a vertical force that could do more to help with the lateral force from the water than it would do to bring the dam closer to collapse, though probably does closer to nothing to the overall physics of the dam.Edit: Fixed a word as I don’t think the existence of damphiles has any effect on the performance of dams until they start drilling/punching holes in them.
All those bolts are entry points for water if not thought through.
Switzerland is one of the only countries where it makes any sense to do this kind of nonsense because they’re already almost completely on renewable power. I shudder to think of how high the installation cost per watt is when you need rope access teams drilling into concrete. Some IRATA certified electrician probably bought a vacation home with the money from just this project.
‘wow the panels are 50% more efficient during winter, and it only cost 1000% more to install compared to a conventional rooftop’
*Ok I checked, it cost about 3.6 CHF per nameplate watt. Roughly double residential rooftop solar in Switzerland, which itself is again about double what a ground mount array costs. So still bad, not nearly as bad as I thought. This also is only the original install cost. Apparently they’ve had to do significant repairs, including replacing 270 panels, because of snow and ice damage. From the bit of extra research I did on this I think the primary purpose of this install was to ease the path to getting more alpine solar installation approved. Because this definitely isn’t economically viable and I don’t think they expected it to be. But there is potential for economically viable alpine solar farms if they can get approval for development.
**By the way this article and the image for it are AI slop, the actual install is slightly less absurd than the article makes it look.
the actual dam
The install generates 3x more power than an equivalent solar farm at lower altitude during the winter months, but costs 4x more to build. Doesn’t really add up. For a smaller investment you could have the same amount of winter production and 3x as much production during the other 3/4 of the year.Yeah people and the media have this weird fascination with putting solar panels in new places. I don’t think finding locations to add them is as big of an issue for how much people seem to care and want to “solve” it.
In a lot of way, the electric grid binds us all together because we have to maintain and improve on the other side of that, it’s a powerful way to motivate folks(rimshot). A lot of countries have had issues with this over the years.
Trying to put solar back in that “box” is not a good use of our time.
It’s not cold fusion, but it just may be close enough.
Could fusion is and always was completely nonsense, it was a design flaw of a measurement instrument that made people think it worked, even though everyone who worked in nuclear fusion immediately dismissed as impossible. There’s a great book that covers the subject called atomic adventures, written by one of the guys very involved in disproving the idea
And? Its new information for future construction, highlights the importance of doing this along with any repairs or new builds where you’re doing some of that work anyway.
Confirms the energy is there.
And its literally on a damn, so storing excess with pumped hydro is can be done with like 0 transmission inefficiency.
‘confirms the energy is there’ buddy it’s the sun, we already know it’s there. It doesn’t make sense to install capacity at 12 euros per watt when you can install capacity for 1 euro per watt or whatever the numbers actually are. I would be shocked if transmission losses are anywhere even close to cost efficiency losses.
The swiss do this sort of thing because they have the money to burn and place a high emphasis on aesthetics. They probably think this is less of an eyesore than ground mount so that makes it worth it for them.
My poibt is its a good demonstration case.
You’re very wrong about Switzerland. About 45% of their energy use is from oil and gas.
I could have sworn I looked this up recently, I might have been thinking of Austria.
*oh that figure includes combustion heating, I think I saw their domestic electricity production mix.
No. 58% is renewable and 25% is nuclear. See: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/zone/CH/all/yearly
That’s only electricity generation, not energy use, like the original commenter replied
this comment should be at the top. My dumbass didn’t realize this was an AI image
I encoded the actual images down in another comment
Quite a dam advancement.
An example of some great dam thinking by a group of smart dam people.
I would think solar would be even more efficient high up in mountains.
Colder temperatures mean they’d stay cooler, produce more power, and for longer… and they are higher up in the air, so amount of photons hitting the panels has to be higher than at sea level, too, further increasing power generation.
At least thats what I’d assume, applying some common sense and a little educated guessing.
I read the German source article someone else posted and you’re spot on. The thinner air is the main advantage for the reason you mentioned. But apparently snow-reflected light off the surrounding peaks is a significant factor as well. I find that interesting.
I’m not sure if anyone said this already and the comments but this should be a great idea for the Hoover dam and or whatever the damn’s name is over by Lake Powell. There are almost dead pool at this point.
Not just on the dam itself, but across the lake to reduce evaporation - like they’ve been doing extensively in Australia.
The Trump dam?
Stupid question, never wondered how dams are constructed (and location chosen): Isn’t there a risk of them being flooded, like in an emergency dump scenario?
Absolutely! They have spillways for this scenario. Practical Engineering on YouTube has a few videos on spillways and a spillway failure.
Dams normaly have a specificly designed spillway as it could otherwise be VERY dangerus (the water removeing dirt at its base , possably leading to dam failure)
I doubt the solar panels were put on it tho
If water is just overflowing it entirely like a glass of water then shits so fucked that the solar panels just dont matter
Maintenance access looks like a pain in the ass, and I would wonder about possible issues with snow/ice buildup and load limits, but otherw8se this is a nice use of the space.
Had a friend who did maintenance work on cell phone towers. Where some people see danger, others see a fat paycheck.
That paycheck eats into power costs, though.
How many kwh/year does one paycheck cover?
I dunno! Its a good question, I have no idea how much they’d actually ice up.
Maybe they have to clear it off the dam anyway, so the cost is sort of amortized?
And/or maybe the steep angle helps?
I mention it because that concrete looks clear of ice/snow to me.
Concrete has a lot of thermal mass. I could believe that it stays warm enough that ice can’t stay on the surface, especially with a reservoir of non-frozen water behind it.
The steel brackets and aluminum panel frames will get a lot colder, especially with wind blowing around them. Basically the same principle as a bridge forming ice before the road on either side of it. An exposed metal frame with a wind chill can develop ice even if the average temperature around it is above freezing.
Hmm… and that makes me wonder if the solar array bolted to the concrete surface acts like a heatsink? That would be an interesting unintended consequence.
I could believe that it stays warm enough that ice can’t stay on the surface
When the sun shines, yes. After 30 days of straight overcast? Not so much.
Interesting indeed.
They should have bolted the panels closer, with shrouds flush with the concrete around the edges! Or maybe add a coolant loop? Perhaps the concrete helps with that already, but is just too technical to include in this article.
A thermal control loop seems like it might be helpful, but the cost would have to be weighed against the remaining efficiency of a simpler setup.
Or just some person hosing them off (which kinda looks like what they’re set up to do, given the position near the railing).
Depends on the mineral content of the available water. If I hosed off solar panels with my readily available household water they’d be under a hard white (calcium carbonate) crust within a couple of dozen hosings.
Got news about snow and ice in Switzerland: it happens in the valleys during winter just as heavy as it ever does at the higher elevations.
Hello Petzl! Would have been pretty cool to work on that solar project.
To be honest, historically and depending on the installation solar power is more useful in the summer or warmer months and dams are less useful because you’re hoping the reservoir fills up and provides power all winter. The reverse is true in the winter we’re damn sure produce more reliable energy but solar power is slightly less available
So to me this sounds like a fairly elegant solution where the dam will now produce large amounts of power throughout the spring and summer months as well as the fall and winter months allowing for more water to be saved up for the winter and more power generation. I’m sure the solar also helps augment the winter as well
Now get rid of the dam and restore the whole destroyed ecosystem you twats.
Poor Swiss and their pride of shitty power plants, not realizing that a water dam is the opposite of ecological power production.
That’s a Dam good idea
I’ll be Dam, that’s clever
But goats be pissed.
I’m sure the greatest-of-all-times will understand
I’d imagine that goats can walk on solar panels too.
And munch on them.
Without even damaging them…
