Looking for some perspective on this, interested how y’all think about it and if I’m isolated in my concerns.

I’ve grown to be a bit anxious when I’m out and about in any neighborhood. The wide use of doorbell cameras that connect to the internet and save data on company servers, listen in to your conversations, and could be used for spying on you as an individual gives me a sinking feeling.

I like walking around, I walk my dogs around the neighborhood and I know my neighbors. I’ve started being so aware that it’s changing my habits. I don’t turn my face towards houses while I’m walking if I notice a doorbell camera, and I’ve put my shirt over my face when dropping off something to a neighbor who has one. I probably gave them a fright but I don’t feel like I should’ve expected to be OK with you surviving me in a way that compromises my privacy that expansively. I’m considering keeping a bandana with me to cover my face if I need to go up to a door, but of course that would make people think I’m a bad actor and just a paranoid privacy nut.

I feel a bit like Winston in the 1984 novel, always feeling watched and trying to find an isolated corner where I can’t be seen. How have y’all been feeling on this? Would love to get perspective, thanks

  • unsettlinglymoist@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    2 days ago

    You would hate living in my apartment – there are at least seven doorbell cameras on my floor, and more cameras in the elevators and parking garage.

    I understand your privacy concerns but I don’t do anything to conceal myself around doorbell cameras. I know I’m recorded by dozens of cameras and other devices every time I leave home. Trying to conceal my face would make me stand out more and might look suspicious to my neighbors. So it’s better to be boring and not give the neighbors anything interesting to look at. Those cameras are here to stay and soon almost every home will have them.

  • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    3 days ago

    I’m not sure what you think your threat model is here. I’m not happy about it either, but my place of residence isn’t entirely private information already. I’m pretty certain it’s available through multiple public information sources. Cameras being able to see me in that vicinity might help someone determine my daily habits and schedule, but there are many other ways of that as well.

    Again, I’m not happy about it, but I feel like you need to ask yourself what risk you’re trying to protect yourself against here.

    As another commenter pointed out, any of the amazon based ones are part of amazon sidewalk and record nearby bluetooth and wifi devices. Sidewalk is also partnering with flock, so that data is available to law enforcement and possibly corporations that use flock for security to be able to use for advertisement.

    But so is your phone’s location data.

    So if you’re trying to protect against this sort of thing, you’d need to be taking much more extreme steps. Different dogs at different times with entirely different outfits and rocks in shoes to make different gaits. Face coverings. Multiple burner phones not tied to your identity, and only taken out of farady bags to use in association with different identities.

    And then it still would all tie back to the same house/general vicinity.

    There’s no perfect privacy options, so you need to identify your threat model. What are you trying to protect against, how important is it, what are the quantifiable risks of failure, and how inconvenienced are you willing to be to achieve this.

    It sucks. I’m not happy about it. But you can’t stop your neighbors from using them. So you’ll need to accept it, or come up with alternatives. Feel like moving to someplace more rural?

    It’s always going to be a balance.

  • utopiah@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    edit-2
    2 days ago

    You are right to be wary of that behavior as it is spreading.

    That being said I believe it’s good to be mindful of the “paranoid privacy nut” in the sense that… WHO are you concerned might have WHICH information about you?

    I don’t know you but… if I were to find your name I could find your address or at least roughly where you live. In fact depending on what you post one could potentially know your neighborhood without even knowing your name. Now I didn’t know you had a pet, now I do. That being said even without a pet… if you live somewhere you are expected to walk around your neighborhood. It might be to go buy milk, help neighbors, drop mail, etc. There is relatively no new information there. Your neighbors might know you are around, their doorbell cameras might have footage of you doing so… and what? How is the confirmation that a perfectly average behavior is indeed coherent? What also NOT having that footage bring? Maybe you are traveling and thus not with your pet but maybe you also are sick.

    So… I agree with you that all those cameras with footage are not healthy but also what do they genuinely add or remove? I would argue in principle a lot but in practice not so much. I would even argue to biggest impact is unwarranted stress and concerns, the chilling effect.

    Walk freely however you want, it’s your neighborhood, ignore the cameras.

    PS: as someone already pointed out, one does not need video cameras to track your movement and patterns, using wireless signal (5G/4G, WiFi, BT) on your phone is enough.

    • WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 day ago

      Your neighbors might know you are around, their doorbell cameras might have footage of you doing so… and what?

      its not about the neighbors knowing this or that, but the cloud processing systems of these devices.

      • utopiah@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        edit-2
        1 day ago

        See my earlier answers. I’m not justifying any of that infrastructure or behavior, only trying to highlight that this information, namely that OP is walking around the neighborhood, where and when, is already available to numerous of the actors including :

        • neighbors, just visually seeing him with their eyes
        • mobile operator via their 5G/4G towers
        • mobile OS via their positioning data
        • WiFi hotspots
        • ISP via WiFi hotspots
        • any app with geolocation tracking and any of their commercial partners purchasing that information
        • connected devices via BT scanning potentially sending back data to their manufacturer, assuming most are connected
        • governments with abilities to get information from ISP, mobile operators, mobile OS maintainers

        So… the question IMHO is : is there are NEW data with or without the camera network? I’d argue marginally more.

        • WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          23 hours ago

          neighbors, just visually seeing him with their eyes

          sane neighbors won’t take notes if you, they won’t build a profile of you that can meaningfully be used for nefarious purposes.

          mobile operator via their 5G/4G towers

          5G, yes, but how accurate is 4G for that purpose? 4G transmitters are not placed as densely as 5G, and the frequency range it uses also makes it less suitable for that, as I know.

          for that you can limit your phone to 4G, it may even save you power. and you always have the choice to put your phone to airplane mode. if you find it useful and you are a little determined, you could even automate it with tasker.

          mobile OS via their positioning data

          you can choose a mobile OS that doesn’t do that. for now…

          • WiFi hotspots

          • ISP via WiFi hotspots

          you mean by your MAC address, when your phone is scanning? better android roms randomize that too, maybe some phones do that on stock OS too.

          any app with geolocation tracking and any of their commercial partners purchasing that information

          you can win a lot by not installing any app a shop wants you to have. they are taking advantage of the gullibility of the average person. lots of those bait apps are just a website anyway, and if you use them in a browser, they have access ro much fewer things.

          but you are talking about apps with location tracking. which ones you mean? I only allow that permission for apps that I trust. on modern android, you can can give only approximate location, which is somewhat better.

          connected devices via BT scanning potentially sending back data to their manufacturer, assuming most are connected

          I don’t get this one. your devices, or those of others? BLE 5 has MAC address randomization

          governments with abilities to get information from ISP, mobile operators, mobile OS maintainers

          the government can barge in my door. does that mean I shouldn’t keep data brokers out of my life? to me it doesn’t. I think we already tackled network operators and OS maintainers too.

          So… the question IMHO is : is there are NEW data with or without the camera network? I’d argue marginally more.

          yes, there is, I think

          • utopiah@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            19 hours ago

            To clarify I listed here behaviors that I believe is common. I’m NOT listing behaviors that somebody privacy conscious is. That same person could around the neighborhood with a hoodie, glasses, hygiene mask just the same way.

            What I was trying to highlight wasn’t extreme behavior, one way or another, but rather typical ones.

            • WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 hours ago

              these methods are available to anyone. if a person is bothered by the constant video surveillance of public spaces, they probably also care about other sources of data leaks, against which they can protect themselves.

              there’s no need for defeatism.